This is confusing. I thought 'butch' was more or less synonymous with 'intentionally masculine' -- for example, 'butch' characteristics would be short hair, male clothing, male behaviors, etc. Skirt-wearing is primarily a female behavior, and excluded from 'butch' behavior by definition. I'll grant that there are men who wear (or want to wear) skirts, but if the definition extends that far, doesn't it become useless?
The point is that assumptions are bad. I believe this directly relates to Bea's poster. How we dress (gender expression) is not the same thing as how we feel (gender identity), the same as how what we're born with (sex) is not the same thing as how we feel. Also remember that a butch is not simply trying to be like a straight man. But you know you're right, maybe there is a point at which definitions are useless. Everyone has their own style, their own identity, and trying to put people under umbrella terms like "man" or "butch" conveys only so much information about them. The most important thing to remember is that there are exceptions to every rule.
Wait, so butch is a gender identity? Because I thought it was a gender expression, or even just a fashion expression...
This makes me think that definitions are possibly useless not only because people are bigger than definitions, but because we are not all using the same definitions...
You know, I'm not the best person to ask about the semantics of all this. I just feel that people should fully embrace themselves and each other, and not be constrained by societal norms. Any more than that is overthinking it. But to answer your question, butch is a gender identity. I'm sure there are people who dress butch as a fashion statement, but to reduce it to that is to cheapen it greatly, in the same way as saying punk is a fashion statement. Historically, butch and femme communities first appeared in the 30s I believe, and the two genders were as separate as men and women in traditional society. That is to say, butches did not date butches and femmes did not date femmes. In that light, butch is a fashion statement in the same way as male (or punk) is a fashion statement.
Ah, okay. I am less confused now. And I like what you say about the embracing people and not being constrained, it is very sensible and nice. Thank you!
@David: I would say that "Butch" is not a gender identity. Butch is a kind of gender performance/presentation in the context of gender roles. It is true that in addition to being outwardly butch, being butch can be part of someone's self-identification, but that is true for a variety of attributes, like nerd, jock, athletic, emotional, stoic, musician, artist, etc. Butch is usually seen as being on the same spectrum that includes "masculine" and "feminine".
Gender identities include "man" and "woman". Genderqueer is a catchall term for gender identities other than man or woman.
As Bonny pointed out in the Terms post, you can find definitions of most of these things on Wikipedia.
@rae: I meant "gender identity" in the sense that Wikipedia does (which also calls it "core gender identity"). If you can give me some links to other sources that define it in the sense that you mean it, that would be interesting and useful.
It is useful to know that some people mean something quite different by the term, although that does make it more likely that people will have rather confused conversations where people misunderstand each other.
(For what it's worth, I agree with you about the meaning of the sign.)
Sometimes it seems like vocabulary gets in the way of understanding, rather than facilitating it.
I undestood the poster to mean that identifying with a blanket term like "butch" (or "male" or "punk" or "nerd") doesn't mean that that word describes you fully. While it may be true that most butches don't wear skirts or most nerds don't play sports, you can't assume something like that applies to an individual. i.e. People are bigger than steriotypes, even self-imposed ones.
@David: I agree with your interpretation of the poster.
I also agree that it is all to easy for people to get lost disagreeing over the definitions of terms. But consensus on the meaning of words provides the common frame of reference that makes communication possible. Consensus does not require complete agreement, nor does it mean that terms can't evolve over time, but when people have significantly different views on the meanings of the terms they are using, there can be both confusion and sometimes acrimony.
Imagine the poster had said, "Just because I'm blond, don't assume that I'm any less smart than you". We could all agree about the sentiment, and agree that someone could self-identify as blond, seeing it as a fundamental part of their identity. Yet if someone then said "Whether dyed or natural, some people see their race as brunette", their use of racial terminology in describing their hair color might be problematic for someone with a more conventional understanding of the meaning of the term "race".
In other words, while I absolutely agree that "butch" is an identity, and it is an identity related to gender expression, the particular term "(core) gender identity" has a very specific meaning (to me at least). I accept that my understanding of the consensus meaning of "gender identity" might be wrong. In that case I'm happy to learn. But equally I hope others can be open to the possibility that they're using the term "gender identity" in a way that leaves at least some people confused (or even unhappy).
This is confusing. I thought 'butch' was more or less synonymous with 'intentionally masculine' -- for example, 'butch' characteristics would be short hair, male clothing, male behaviors, etc. Skirt-wearing is primarily a female behavior, and excluded from 'butch' behavior by definition. I'll grant that there are men who wear (or want to wear) skirts, but if the definition extends that far, doesn't it become useless?
ReplyDeleteThe point is that assumptions are bad. I believe this directly relates to Bea's poster. How we dress (gender expression) is not the same thing as how we feel (gender identity), the same as how what we're born with (sex) is not the same thing as how we feel.
ReplyDeleteAlso remember that a butch is not simply trying to be like a straight man.
But you know you're right, maybe there is a point at which definitions are useless. Everyone has their own style, their own identity, and trying to put people under umbrella terms like "man" or "butch" conveys only so much information about them. The most important thing to remember is that there are exceptions to every rule.
Wait, so butch is a gender identity? Because I thought it was a gender expression, or even just a fashion expression...
ReplyDeleteThis makes me think that definitions are possibly useless not only because people are bigger than definitions, but because we are not all using the same definitions...
You know, I'm not the best person to ask about the semantics of all this. I just feel that people should fully embrace themselves and each other, and not be constrained by societal norms. Any more than that is overthinking it.
ReplyDeleteBut to answer your question, butch is a gender identity. I'm sure there are people who dress butch as a fashion statement, but to reduce it to that is to cheapen it greatly, in the same way as saying punk is a fashion statement.
Historically, butch and femme communities first appeared in the 30s I believe, and the two genders were as separate as men and women in traditional society. That is to say, butches did not date butches and femmes did not date femmes. In that light, butch is a fashion statement in the same way as male (or punk) is a fashion statement.
Ah, okay. I am less confused now. And I like what you say about the embracing people and not being constrained, it is very sensible and nice. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteThank YOU for asking questions.
ReplyDeleteAnd a particularly big thank-you to Bonny and Lowell for giving us a chance to discuss this.
@David: I would say that "Butch" is not a gender identity. Butch is a kind of gender performance/presentation in the context of gender roles. It is true that in addition to being outwardly butch, being butch can be part of someone's self-identification, but that is true for a variety of attributes, like nerd, jock, athletic, emotional, stoic, musician, artist, etc. Butch is usually seen as being on the same spectrum that includes "masculine" and "feminine".
ReplyDeleteGender identities include "man" and "woman". Genderqueer is a catchall term for gender identities other than man or woman.
As Bonny pointed out in the Terms post, you can find definitions of most of these things on Wikipedia.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@rae: I meant "gender identity" in the sense that Wikipedia does (which also calls it "core gender identity"). If you can give me some links to other sources that define it in the sense that you mean it, that would be interesting and useful.
ReplyDeleteIt is useful to know that some people mean something quite different by the term, although that does make it more likely that people will have rather confused conversations where people misunderstand each other.
(For what it's worth, I agree with you about the meaning of the sign.)
Sometimes it seems like vocabulary gets in the way of understanding, rather than facilitating it.
ReplyDeleteI undestood the poster to mean that identifying with a blanket term like "butch" (or "male" or "punk" or "nerd") doesn't mean that that word describes you fully. While it may be true that most butches don't wear skirts or most nerds don't play sports, you can't assume something like that applies to an individual. i.e. People are bigger than steriotypes, even self-imposed ones.
@David: I agree with your interpretation of the poster.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that it is all to easy for people to get lost disagreeing over the definitions of terms. But consensus on the meaning of words provides the common frame of reference that makes communication possible. Consensus does not require complete agreement, nor does it mean that terms can't evolve over time, but when people have significantly different views on the meanings of the terms they are using, there can be both confusion and sometimes acrimony.
Imagine the poster had said, "Just because I'm blond, don't assume that I'm any less smart than you". We could all agree about the sentiment, and agree that someone could self-identify as blond, seeing it as a fundamental part of their identity. Yet if someone then said "Whether dyed or natural, some people see their race as brunette", their use of racial terminology in describing their hair color might be problematic for someone with a more conventional understanding of the meaning of the term "race".
In other words, while I absolutely agree that "butch" is an identity, and it is an identity related to gender expression, the particular term "(core) gender identity" has a very specific meaning (to me at least). I accept that my understanding of the consensus meaning of "gender identity" might be wrong. In that case I'm happy to learn. But equally I hope others can be open to the possibility that they're using the term "gender identity" in a way that leaves at least some people confused (or even unhappy).